Wackenhut: Deposition of County Auditor - STONEWALL (Cathy) Jackson. By Geniusofdespair

Q. Do you have a duty to Dade County, Dade County's taxpayers to detect fraud in the operation of county government?
Answer from Cathy Jackson, Director of Internal Auditing for Miami-Dade County:
"No, I don't feel that I have a responsibility."

So, the Chief Auditor for the County will report fraud if she stumbles on it, but she won't go looking for it, try to detect it.

This deposition is about our hard earned tax dollars -- perhaps millions of dollars that the County was being billed by Wackenhut for phantom guards. A whistle-blower lawsuit to recover damages for the County is being blocked at every turn by guess who? The County. Lawyers for the whistle-blower requested this deposition, and they got 150 pages of run around with a few interesting nuggets.

For instance, this came out:

Q Apart from law enforcement bodies, have you presented your findings to any other person in county government?
Answer from Cathy Jackson: Yes.
Q Who?
George Burgess, County Manager.

You will remember in my last post on Wackenhut, April 14th, County lawyers were trying to block the deposition of Burgess saying that Burgess did NOT have to be deposed since the information could be obtained from other sources. Well, where are the "other sources" if Cathy says no one else knows about it and she remains mum? She asserts in the depo that no Commissioner knows of her findings.

In a rare glimpse of some daffy double-talk and major stonewalling, here are a few pages from her 150 pages of testimony. And, after all of this we still don't know when we are getting that County Audit which is over 30 months overdue. For your info, (A) is Cathy "Stonewall" Jackson and (Q) is a lawyer question (this is straight from the actual deposition):

2 Q To whom do you believe you have a responsibility
3 in performing this audit?
4 MR. GONZALEZ: Objection to form.
5 MS. DE CESPEDES WENKE: Objection to form.
6 A I don't understand that question.
7 Q Do you have a responsibility to the taxpayers of
8 Dade County to detect and determine fraud?
9 A I don't think I have a responsibility, but what I
10 do have a responsibility is if I'm asked to conduct audit,
11 if I conduct audits and there's something that's improper
12 that's discovered from those audits, I do have a
13 responsibility to report that information, and I take that
14 responsibility very seriously, and I have a very good track
15 record for doing just that.
16 But I'm not prepared to come here before I issue
17 an audit report and make any representations or conclusions
18 until that report is issued, and whatever findings that we
19 do have will be in that report.
20 Q So you don't believe that you have a duty to the
21 taxpayers of Dade County? Let me break it down. Strike it
22 and I'll start over.
23 Do you have a duty to Dade County, Dade County's
24 taxpayers to detect fraud in the operation of county
25 government?

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1 MR. GONZALEZ: Objection to form.
2 MS. DE CESPEDES WENKE: Objection to form.
3 A No, I don't feel that I have a responsibility.
4 My audit, my department is not formulated just to detect
5 fraud. You know, our audits take on a myriad of forms.
6 The Inspector General is more so formulated for
7 that purpose, to do forensic.
8 However, if in conducting an audit, if we find
9 anything improper, be it fraud, intentional, unintentional,
10 I do have a responsibility to report that, and I take that
11 responsibility very seriously and we do that very
12 diligently.
13 Q Well, you were tasked to perform that or given
14 that responsibility to detect fraud in September of 2005.
15 Have you reported to anyone at Miami-Dade County or any
16 taxpayers in the ensuing three years that you have detected
17 any fraud?
18 MS. DE CESPEDES WENKE: Objection to form.
19 MR. GONZALEZ: Objection to form.
20 A Sir, where is it stated anywhere that I had a
21 responsibility to detect fraud? I don't understand what
22 you're -- I mean, I think you --
23 Q To your understanding, does anyone at Miami-Dade
24 County have a duty to detect fraud?
25 MR. GONZALEZ: Objection to form.

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1 MS. DE CESPEDES WENKE: Objection to form.
2 A Sir, that's a very loaded, open-ended question,
3 and I'm not going to get here, you know --
4 Q It's a yes or no question.
5 A Well, it's a yes or no question, but it's a
6 loaded question, and I think I've answered my question on
7 the record. You're asking me the same question on and on
8 and on, okay.
9 I take my job very seriously, and if I do an
10 audit and I come across fraud or anything that's improper, I
11 have a responsibility to report it, and I do just that.
12 Q All right, and to whom have you reported any of
13 your findings other than Wackenhut?
14 A I have not reported my findings to Wackenhut.
15 That's your representation.
16 MR. GONZALEZ: Objection to form.
17 THE WITNESS: That's not my representation.
18 MS. DE CESPEDES WENKE: Join on the county's
19 objection to that last question.
20 Q Have you reported any of your interim findings to
21 any of the county commissioners?
22 A No, I have not.
23 MR. GONZALEZ: Objection to form.
24 Q Have you reported any of your interim findings to
25 anyone out outside of Audit and Management Services?

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1 MR. GONZALEZ: Objection to form.
2 MS. DE CESPEDES WENKE: Objection to form.
3 A I have.
4 Q To whom?
5 A I have to law enforcement bodies, and I will not
6 discuss what I have disclosed to them, but I have disclosed
7 to them concerns that I have had with regard to the audit.
8 Q Apart from law enforcement bodies, have you
9 presented your findings to any other person in county
10 government?
11 MR. GONZALEZ: Objection to form.
12 MS. DE CESPEDES WENKE: Objection to form.
13 A Yes.
14 Q Who?
15 A George Burgess, county manager.
16 Q And when did you make those findings known to
17 him?
18 MR. GONZALEZ: Objection to form.
19 MS. DE CESPEDES WENKE: Objection to form.
20 A I have conversations with Mr. Burgess every now
21 and then and I will make him aware of myou know, what my
22 concerns are, and I have also showed him documents as I
23 customarily do with an audit to give him a sense of what's
24 going on.
25 Q Give me a sense of how often it is that you have

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1 these discussions with Mr. Burgess about this audit.
2 A No, it's not that often, but I can't recall the
3 number of times, but I have discussed this audit with him.
4 Q Is it more than ten times in the 900 days that
5 you've been doing this?
6 MS. DE CESPEDES WENKE: Objection to form.
7 MR. GONZALEZ: Objection.
8 A Whether it was ten times within 904 days, I don't
9 recall, but I do recall --
10 Q Do you know if it was --
11 A -- I have discussed things that I felt for
12 clarification as I'm supposed to do with the county manager,
13 and I've expressed to him issues as it pertains to this
14 particular audit.
15 Q Did you initiate the contact with law
16 enforcement, or did they initiate the contact with you?
17 A I initiated the contact with law enforcement.
18 Q All right.
19 MS. DE CESPEDES WENKE: I'm sorry, could you
20 repeat that last question, the court reporter?
21 (THEREUPON, THE LAST QUESTION AND ANSWER WAS READ BACK BY
22 THE COURT REPORTER.)
23 MS. DE CESPEDES WENKE: Thank you.
24 Q All right. Do you have a general schedule of how
25 often you report the interim observations or concerns that

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1 you have regarding this audit to George Burgess?
2 MS. DE CESPEDES WENKE: Objection to form.
3 A No.
4 Q Do you meet with him every month about this
5 audit?
6 A No, I do not.
7 Q Do you meet with him every quarter?
8 A I have no frequency schedule that I can present
9 here. Like I've said, I have discussed this audit with
10 George Burgess.

Some more gems:

22 Q Do you keep a calendar?
23 A Yes, I do.
24 Q All right, and would your calendar have the dates
25 of meetings with Wackenhut?

36
A No, no, because I -- no.
2 Q So you keep -- does your calendar make notations
3 of meetings that you have?
4 A They do.
5 Q All right.
6 A At times, not all the time. If it's a formal
7 meeting, it does, but if it's an informal meeting, it does
8 not.
9 Q So if there's a formal meeting between you and
10 Wackenhut, it would be noted in you calendar?
11 MR. GONZALEZ: Objection to form.
12 MS. DE CESPEDES WENKE: Objection to form.
13 Q Correct?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q All right. Have you had informal meetings with
16 Wackenhut?
17 A What I deem to be informal, yes.
18 Q What is the difference between a formal and
19 informal meeting?
20 A When we get to the stage in the audit whereby I'm
21 going to be discussing my report findings with them, that is
22 a formal meeting because I will notice that meeting, and the
23 purpose of that meeting will be to discuss the findings, you
24 know, and the contents of our report draft, you know, when
25 it's produced, so that we could discuss that with them.

37
1 That's what I consider to be a formal meeting.
2 Q So have you ever had --
3 A If I'm just requesting --
4 Q I'm sorry.
5 A -- clarification, you know, of some information
6 or making a request for information, I consider that to be
7 informal.
8 Q All right. Have you had a formal meeting with
9 Wackenhut?
10 A No, I have not.
11 Q Well, how else would your -- strike that. Is
12 there any way other than looking at your notes by which we
13 would determine when you have had meetings with Wackenhut?
14 A No, I guess unless you ask them.
15 Q All right. Do you recall -- I understand that
16 you've had several meetings with Wackenhut.
17 A Uh-huh.
18 Q Have you had any meetings in 2008 other than this
19 meeting in February?
20 A There may have been.
21 Q Do you know when it occurred?
22 A No. I'm not sure if there was a second meeting
23 in January -- I'm sorry, a meeting in February or if it was
24 a meeting in January, but you know, I, you know, I had, I'm
25 quite sure I've had one meeting, one more meeting in 2008.

38
1 I'm certain of that. I do recall that.
2 Q How is it you are certain that you had another --
3 A Because I don't meet with Wackenhut very
4 frequently, and though I don't remember all the times I've
5 met with them in 2008, you know, I don't think I've had more
6 than one, to the best of my recollection right here today.
7 But again, if that information is very important,
8 you know, and it's something that I have to produce, I'd be
9 glad to, and I continue to want to state here for the
10 record, we want --
11 MS. WALDMAN ROSS: We've heard that you want to
12 release the audit report. We've heard that over and over
13 again, that when it's released, we can have the information,
14 you're happy to give it to us.

And then there is a lot of this type of exchange:

Q All right. What are the issues that you
6 discussed with Wackenhut on, at the other meeting that
7 occurred in January or February?
8 A As I've stated for the record, the meetings that,
9 the matters that I discussed were audit matters. I have no
10 reason to meet with Wackenhut other than to discuss audit
11 matters.
12 And as I've stated before, our audit report, when
13 it's released, you can have access to whatever information
14 that we have as pertains to this audit.
15 Q All right. I'm asking you specifically the
16 communications that you had with Wackenhut on this other
17 meeting that you're certain that occurred in 2008.
18 MS. DE CESPEDES WENKE: Objection to form.
19 MR. GONZALEZ: I'm going to object to the form of
20 the question as asked and answered.
21 I'll also object and assert my previous objection
22 that if, and I'll instruct you not to answer any substantive
23 issues that are contained in the audit work papers and audit
24 notes in an ongoing audit.
25 A I've discussed audit matters.

42
1 Q And what specifically about your audit did you
2 discuss with Wackenhut?
3 MS. DE CESPEDES WENKE: Objection to form, asked
4 and answered.
5 MR. GONZALEZ: I'm going to have the same
6 objection as previously stated and to the previous question.
7 A And I have the same answer.
8 Q I understand that you -- I'm asking you -- your
9 answer was you discussed audit matters. I'm asking you
10 specifically what those matters are.
11 A And I've --
12 Q If you're not going to tell me what those matters
13 are, I just need to have that on the record for purposes at
14 some later point addressing them with the Court.
15 A I discussed audit matters.
16 Q All right. What are the audit matters that you
17 discussed with Wackenhut?
18 MR. GONZALEZ: I think I've instructed her not to
19 answer because if the audit matters are pertaining to work
20 papers and notes, I think at this point you have probably
21 whatever you need for the Court, so, and I'm assuming since
22 you're saying audit matters over and over again, that she
23 cannot answer without going to the contents of an ongoing
24 audit and what is contained in the audit work papers and
25 notes.

And then there is...

10 Q Well, do you know what percentage of the total
11 documents that you obtained that you audited? Did you audit
12 100 percent of Wackenhut's performance under this transit
13 contract for the three-year period, or some smaller
14 percentage?
15 MS. DE CESPEDES WENKE: Objection to form.
16 MR. GONZALEZ: Objection to form.
17 A An audit is not about auditing 100 percent
18 performance. That's why it's an audit.
19 But I cannot tell you the percentage that I've
20 audited.
21 Q Why not?
22 A Because I can't. I don't quantify in terms of
23 percentages.
24 Q Well, does somebody in your office of Audit and
25 Management Services know how many of the documents that were

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1 presented to you have been examined?
2 MS. DE CESPEDES WENKE: Objection to form, asked
3 and answered.
4 A Well, if it is, it's a part of our work papers,
5 and once those work papers are made available for public
6 inspection, I'm quite sure that information, if it's in
7 there, will be made available.
8 Right now today, I have not personally quantified
9 the amount of documents that we've looked at.
10 Q Well, when you sat down initially with Wackenhut
11 in August of 2006, did you tell them what portion of the
12 records that you intended to examine?
13 A As I've said before, Counsel, that any
14 discussions that I've had with Wackenhut, they pertain to
15 audit matters, and I am not prepared to discuss specifically
16 what I've discussed with Wackenhut.
17 Q So again, you're not going to discuss anything
18 that you communicated to Wackenhut in this meeting of August
19 of 2006?
20 A I'm not prepared to discuss anything that's
21 associated with work papers that I have obtained in
22 connection with my audit or anything that's the subject
23 pertaining to that.

And, so it goes: Round and round in a circle game (Joni Mitchell).